Where Do Our Visitors Come From? Since the 'collected papers' section was first posted in late February of 1998 the three front pages of this site have been accessed 40,000 times. With the advent of the 'Journal' in August, the number of visits increased dramatically. More recently we have added a section of the site devoted to personality type, organizational form, and the structure of consciousness. While still under development, it has nonetheless also begun to attract visitors. Over 100 individuals visit the three respective front pages of this suite of web-sites each day. Each month visitors download 10,000 copies of the various papers that have been published at these sites. Our server report that some of these papers are amongst the most frequently accessed pages that they currently offer. Every week 500 persons take the FD33, and 250 use the Javascript Tool For Exploring Typological Space. During the past year individuals from seventy-six countries have visited 'The Enneagram and the MBTI' - Argentina, Australia, Austria, Barbados, Belgium, Bermuda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Estonia,Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Greece, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jamaica, Kiribati, Latvia, Lebanon, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malaysia, Malta, Maldives, Mexico, Moldavia, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, New Zealand, Oman, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, the Russian Federation, South Africa, South Korea, Singapore, Slovenia, the Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Trinidad and Tobago, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, the United States, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Yugoslavia.	What Kind of Communications Are Currently Taking Place at This Site? We receive approximately 500 emails per month generated by material presented at the site, and a half dozen hardcopy letters. In addition, there is correspondence that Ros and Walter handle on their own in the course of managing the 'Type Writer' page and the 'Community Forum'. The messages that we received regarding the written and visual works of art that are displayed in the Journal are not included here in the 'Letters to the Editor' column. Excerpts from visitor emails regarding these topics can be found in the respective sections devoted to these concerns - in the 'Typewriter' and 'Art and Personality' sections. We have also chosen not to include messages here that were posted at the Community Forum Message Board - because they continue to be DIRECTLY available there. In a brief overview of what has been happening at the board, Walter has summarized some of the topics that have been addressed there, and has eloquently described the kind of dialogue that has begun to occur there. As he mentions, it is impossible to include - either at the board or here - the numerous email conversations that have taken place as a result of some messages posted at the board, or some of the email exchanges that have led to postings. Nor have we included confidential conversations initiated by individuals interested in coming to a better understanding of their own Enneagram and MBTI types and the relationship between the two systems as they experience these manifesting within themselves. There is also little point in reproducing the requests that we receive for technical assistance, unless we feel that others will benefit from the answers. A few individuals each month seek assistance in downloading the condensed pdf file that contains the entire 'collected papers' site for off-line reading, make requests to be included on various mailing lists, and seek help with how to use the message board. We also continue to receive, on a daily basis, responses to the 33 question experimental preference order indicator (FD33) that we put up in August. Although 500 individuals take the test each week, only a few thousand individuals have chosen to submit their scores to us for study. We treat the forms that are submitted as confidential communications and will not share individual responses publicly, but will report further on our findings in the future (a preliminary report was posted in the Second Issue of the Journal). So what HAVE we included here in the 'Letters to the Editor' section? A number of messages that do not fit within the other communication formats that we offer - short messages that are left at the guestbook, ones emailed to us directly from the site, or hard-copy letters sent via the post office. When these initiate a two-party correspondence that may be beneficial to our readership at large, however, we try to include them in the 'Conversations' column.
We Still Need Your Help in Designing Email 'Lists' and 'Chat Room Discussions'. To date, the chatroom facility has been most successfully used only for small (two or three person) meetings that require 'real time' responses - meetings, for instance, in which specific decisions need to be made, with simultaneous input required from various parties. We are, however, considering whether to schedule some get-togethers on specific topics at the chatroom and need to know what kind of groups you'd be interested in participating in. The Chat Room has other advantages over alternate forms of electronic communication - such meetings can be made 'private' at the Delphi facilities that we use, and a transcript of the discussion can be logged and emailed to participants - obviating the need for someone to 'take minutes' of the proceedings. And there is something nice about getting a response immediately, in 'real time'. We are also considering creating email 'lists' for those who would like to participate in email discussion groups on specific topics or issues, or individuals who may have an email account but limited internet access. If you have a topic related to the Enneagram and MBTI that you would like to form a discussion group around, either via email list or at the private chatroom, please let us know. We are compiling a list of topics, and the names of interested parties. So far, here are the ideas that some individuals have suggested - clergy members who use the Enneagram and MBTI for counseling purposes, writers with an interest in discussing personality type and the written word, and organizational development consultants who want to explore the relationship between personality type and organizational forms. Chatroom meetings and/or email 'lists' are often most productive when attended by a SMALL number of participants with similar interests. Email us if you have a topic that you'd be interested in discussing in one of these formats, or if you are interested in leading a discussion on a particular topic.

Messages/Letters (received since last issue):

9/9/99 Dear Editors, Excellent. I teach a variety of human relations, team building, ethics course and make extensive use of the MBTI. Interesting and informative and a good base for class discussion on the validity of personality tests, impact and implications. Keep up the good work! Lou Newell Thanks for the encouragement. We'd like to hear more about your experience, and your thoughts (or your class's) on the matters of personality tests, impact and implications. How about an article for our on-line Journal?

9/8/99 Dear Editors, I appreciate your website in terms of offering good articles. Thank you. Sincerely yours, Joung-Hoon Lee Korea Productivity Center We are glad that we can be of help. We put a lot of effort into article content and hope that the material we present helps to further the discussion.

9/5/99 Dear Editors, I am a personnel psychology student, therefore your site helped with my current research. Thankyou, Keersten You are most welcome! Thanks for dropping by our site, and for leaving a message. Would like to hear about your research.

9/4/99 Dear Editors, Very informative and challenging. Thank you! G.P., CMI You are welcome.

9/4/99 Dear Sir, I enjoy greatly your enneagram javascript program I am currently working on a flash movie and interactive site on the enneagram and would like to integrate your javascript program into it. The multimedia educational flash movie would be for free and no profit would be made on it. I am making it for my sufi study circle to aid in our understanding of the enneagram in our travels on the Path. Please let me know if this is a workable arrangement with you. Peace, Salim Michael McCarron I visited your site. You have done such a nice job, and have obviously put much thought and effort into it! I would be happy to permit you to use my javascript program on your site, and hope that it would prove of benefit to people, once I have an understanding of how you will technically accomplish that and can be assured that you agree to certain limitations ... not to sell, transfer, modify or 'borrow' the code, in whole or part, for any other use, on any other site, or in any other media. John

9/2/99 Dear Editors, Thanks. Mauricio Mendoza, desde la bellísima Perla Tapatia de nada. Pat desde la antiquisima Troy

9/2/99 Dear Editors, Very attractive. I think if it is more simple it would be better. Felix Thanks for dropping by our site, and for leaving a message. In what ways do you think we might simplify?

9/2/99 Dear Editors, I am particularly interested in using these tools in ministerial training. Currently I teach this at our undergraduate college and in a program at the Seminary, Personal and Ministry Integration. Norma We'd really love to hear more about you and your program, Norma, and the new directions in which you find yourself headed.

8/19/99 I have found this site informative and interesting. Michelle, ENTP 7 Glad to be of help. Thanks for taking the time to leave a message, and for the encouragement. You've been added to our emailing list and will receive news about upcoming editions of the Journal. Please feel free to comment, ask questions, or use the message board facilities at the site.

8/16/99 Dear Editors, Could you please advise how to attach data to the email message please? Celia If you are talking about how to submit the test score data for the FD33, all you have to do is push the 'submit' button both times it is offered. If this answer does not help, please let me know. The problem is that this doesn't work - hence the query! Maybe I'll have another try. Thanks anyway, Celia Don't know why that is. Sorry.

8/16/99 Dear Editors, I was so glad to see your webpage and discover that some other people were also finding some inconsistencies in both the MBTI and Keirsey models. I recently took the official version of MBTI for a class I was in, and coded as INTP. I tried taking the Keirsey test on the web and was coded as INFP. Therefore, I have been unsure as to which one I fit into. However, today when I took your Fudjack-Dinkelaker test for determining the dominant function, my dominant function was intuition. This would make the most sense of all because it would mean that neither thinking or feeling dominates. Therefore, I think I am an INTP whose dominant function is intuition, not thinking. How does this fit into your theories right now about the J/P preference not necessarily determining which function is dominant? I appreciate any insight you can offer. Thanks again for your ideas. Sharilee What you say makes sense to us. Lets assume, for a moment, that you ARE an introverted intuitive (IN). Since you tested as a 'p' in both the MBTI and the Keirsey test, lets assume that you are also a 'P'. This would make you, using our nomenclature, either an iNfp or iNtp - possibities that are not permitted in the MBTI/Keirsey protocol. Under this understanding (that you are iNfp or iNtp), the discrepency between your MBTI and Keirsey scores thus becomes less significant - you are only switching F for T as the auxiliary function, not participating in a struggle between F and T for the 'dominant' place! Because BOTH the MBTI and the Keirsey INFER preference order from the E/I, J/P, N/S, and T/F scales, instead of testing preference order DIRECTLY, as we try to do, you are by definition not permitted to be an introverted intuitive (IN) if you test 'I' and 'P'. We looked up your FD33 records and found that you scored NTFS (high in N, nearly equal in T and F, and low in S). This lends support to the hypothesis that your dominant function is iNtuition, and that your preference for thinking and feeling is about even. Thanks for bringing your case to our attention. If you have any further thoughts on the matter, or questions, please feel free.

8/8/99 Dear Editors, This is the most informative site I have found --I am a 5 and an INFP---is that odd or not? In one book, I saw that this was considered Quite Common--although I didn;t hear this particular combo mentioned on this site...I've noted I have a well developed Four wing also...thanks again! Gabriela If you take a look at one of the charts at our site, you will see that the INFP tests as an E5 less frequently than if the distribution of MBTI types across the Enneagram were random ( I = 1.0). This does NOT mean that you are not an INFP or not an E5, or that you've done anything wrong. Just that your combination is less common. Since you mention a strong E4 wing, and INFPs concentrate comparatively heavily in E4, I'm curious to know if you have taken our FD33 test. It provides us with additional information about your preference orders that cannot be ascertained from the MBTI. We originally devised the test in order to distinguish iNfps (introverts with Ni-Fe-Ti-Se preference orders and preference for P) from inFps (introverts with Fi-Ne-Si-Te preference orders and preference for P), and so on.

8/12/99 Dear Editors, Please feel free to give me a call. I'd be interested in discussing 'screening personality' issues as a job candidate selection criteria. Personality fit to company environment seems to be something human resource departments give personality tests to determine. I'm interested in understanding more about this should you like to offer any input. I was very interested in your articles. Bob C. Thanks for leaving a message at our Organization and Personality Type site, and for your interest in our work. What issues in particular are you interested in discussing? The fact that personality tests are used primarily as screening devices? This approach puts the onus for a 'good fit' on the employee. The question that we are interested in asking, as we're sure you know, is what KINDS of organization would best fit each of the 'types', and how would this change 'organization' as we know it? Would love to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Dear Editors, My first encounter with MBTI was an eye opener and has helped me in countless ways understanding myself AND others with whom I must interact. I have always felt, though, that I drifted between an ENTJ and an INTJ. My introduction to the enneagram seems to indicate that I am a FIVE which allows for both E and I behavior (indeed it offers an explaination with which I can truly identify.) When I recently began studying the enneagram, it was quite obvious, even after only a cursory exposure, that there were many similaritites to the MBTI. Your web-site is well on the right track. Jeff S. Thanks, Jeff. Although INTJs seem to gravitate toward E5 in droves, ENTJs find themselves in E5 in less-than-random concentrations, as shown by the table at our site. This doesn't mean that you CAN'T be an INTJ and E5, of course. We'd be interested in knowing if you've taken our FD33 test. The results of this short test provides us with information about your preference orders that can't be gleened from the MBTI.

7/14/99 Dear Editors Have read your papers on the functions and the enneagram with respect relish, and some emergent reflections. One of my honors program students is just completing work on them. I am doing a workshop intgrating my background as psychodramatist,tai chi ,chi kung enthusiast, the Mbti and the enneagram especially, this Aug 15 on the Moreno stage in Boughton place, New Paltz New York. If you know of any others who come from these backgrounds, I would genuinely appreciate email or other contact points. I will be training with Hurley and Donson as well as Riso- Hudson this summer and will be writing on the aspects of the intgration for Sepi. Hope to hear from you. Dr. Joe Pirone Thanks - we'd love to hear your thoughts, or the thoughts of your students, about the matters presented at out site. I'm not familiar with the Moreno stage, although I probably should be. Is that Jacob Moreno that its named after? A man who was way ahead of his time. For a while now Pat and I have been working on an interpretation of the Enneagram that sees it as a socio-spiritual tool, in a profound sense of this term which marries the social and spiritual domains in a fundamental, non-articificial way. Our 'Enneagram as Mandala' series was the first step in presenting this view. It deals, of course, with the spiritual side of the equation - and intends to reinvest the Enneagram with its rightful spiritual heritage. Our next series on the Enneagram will focus on the equally important heritage of socio-political change and management that has always looked to the dramatic arts for expression, and in order to explore the principles underlying the socio-political dimensions of human reality. Our thesis is that the Enneagram, like the Commedia del'Arte, was originally conceived as a socio-spiritual tool. But subject to the relatively recent arrival of the individual 'person' on the historical scene, it has become deeply entrenched in the psychology of the individual. Following the lead of the MBTI, which has been particularly successful as a typology, it has all but forgotten its roots in pre-individualist attempts to understand the dynamics of interpersonal play. So it is rather synchronistic that you should drop us a note at this time, as we are presently working on a paper along these lines - one which conceives of the Commedia del'Arte 'stock characters' as a precursor to contemporary 'personality types'. If truth be told, much has been lost as a result of individualist psychology, and we are interested in re-conceiving of the 'types' in terms of 'social role'. We should talk. Perhaps I will be able to attend your presentation on the 15th. As for making contact with others regarding your workshop, the only way that we have of doing this is via the website - we could present your workshop in a 'what's happening' page (like the Riso Hudson one), clickable from the front page. For events that have an admission fee it is our policy to charge for an advertisement ($50 for a short announcement, which runs for 4 weeks, $7 per k for a larger piece with graphics or photos). I am going out of town on Friday, and would need copy and photos by tomorrow if you want to have something up before August. (If so you might want to look to the forms on the Journal page in order to get an idea of what we need - names, title, cost, place, time, etc.) If you feel that it can wait until August, then there's no hurry. John

Dear Editors, We tried to submit out FD33 scores but could not. Here they are - intuiting=7; sensing=8; feeling= 11 and thinking=11 C. We did, in fact, receive your scores. The second 'send' button on the test may not seem to be doing anything, but it in fact does send the answers to us, for safe keeping. But thanks so much for being concerned, and making sure that we got the results!

8/16/99 Dear Editors, I am Dr. H. - a Psychologist in California. I have a website where I would love to use your Javascript Tool for people who have taken my workshops. Can you please tell me how I may acquire this program? I appreciate your help. Thanks, R. If you give us your URL and a brief description of how you intend to use the tool on your site (e.g, you want it to appear in an auxiliary window clickable from your site) we will consider ways in which this might best be accomplished.

Dear Editors, I am interested in obtaining a free copy of this instrument [the Javascript Tool] S.M. Community College

Dear Editors, Yesterday I filled out the F/D Functional Preferences Instrument. At the completion of the instrument, the only choice available was a "Send" button. Upon clicking the send button, an e-mail message was generated to you. The attachment is probably my corporate Outlook98 stationery. I certainly understand your reluctance to open an unknown attachment! (However, it's not an exe. file) How is the instrument scored, then? Generally, upon clicking the submit button at the end of such on-line "tests," a score is either instantly generated, or it is mailed to the participant's e-mail account. I assumed the latter, because of the amount of information that was requested up front....name, address, M/F, MBTI type, etc. Please advise! LA. Unless digital transfer is interrupted, when you hit the 'submit' button, your score is calcuted and then displayed on the screen. At that point you are given the option of sending us the data by pushing another 'submit' button.

8/2/99 Dear Editors, I have some information which assist you on the theories of altered consciousness as first illustrated by Jung, although I have developed this it is hard to explain as I've discovered it in self which I am still exploring. I would be happy to share this with you if you could assist me with this phenomenon. It is rather exciting, visit my web page too, INTERVAL. Regards, M.T. Would like to hear what you have to say on the subject, and will check out your website.

7/27/99 Dear Editors, Very interesting -- I like the way you do not take the types for granted and assume that they are 100% accurate simply because they are respected. You are willing to push the test in order to see what is true and what is not. Sherilee We do try to push tests, concepts, and hypotheses to the limit, to see what happens. But as you say, this is in the spirit of inquiry and not because we don't have appreciation and respect for the tremendous contributions that others have made.

7/26/99 Dear John, Last night I was double checking the sites you had given me in your letters that I had put in "save" and I found the levels of the Enneagram. I had been so excited over the art site that I had overlooked it. By the way, when I clicked on Part one that you reference as you read Part Two, you are unable to access it. My goodness, you and Pat have really been doing some research to uncover some mysteries! It must be fascinating. It will take me more than one night to read it all, much less to understand it. I thought the pattern found in architecture is intriguing. But many patterns seem to be repeated in relation to levels and stages in all areas of the physical and spiritual universe. That has to be related to synchronicity - that ideas are being manifested in disparate places because they are part of universal laws and principles and are therefore inevitable. I loved having my second graders search for patterns that are found in nature and then to locate them in the physical world. My little piece of starting them on the "road to enlightenment." Had I seen this part of The Journal, it would have taken me much longer, if ever, to have written. I want to finish this section and then revisit the beginning of your journal, although I was with you pretty much on the Type articles, I suppose because I've done so much reading, it doesn't seem as complex, and my knowledge of the Enneagram was cursory. This is making me want to get back to my comparison to world history by time, with the art, music spiritual teachings, myths etc. more than ever. I need a bigger house with a room just to do my projects that I could leave out! I would have loved to have tried your brain teasers with the Enneagram, but there's so much I want to learn, that I don't have time to spend there. It must have been so interesting finding the connections within the circle. As always, challenged, Laurie This letter led to a most interesting dialogue that is far too long and complicated to share here.

7/24/99 I enjoyed the last issue of 'Typewriter'. BTW, how do I catch a glimpse of the 3 other groups of writings? Also, all three seem NF ish to me. The city dwelling thing had a lot of specific details, but ..... never mind. Rita They are all available in the ARCHIVE, and are indexed by author and title in this issue's 'Type Writer'.

7/21/99 Dear Editors, Does personality change? What factors cause personality change? Normally, how we defined changes of personality? Bunen This is a very interesting question you ask, and somewhat controversial. It is also a rather complex matter. Hopefully we'll at some point be able to get into this matter in more depth. But for now, let me mention that Pat and I both believe in the possibility of profound personal change, changes that effect the individual's personality. And we also believe that an individual's particular preferences so (conceived in MBTI times - eg, I/E or J/P, or S/N, etc.) can, and sometimes do, change. Change is not easy; all change is not 'good', or recommeded; some changes are not even necessary, or practicable. But some changes (toward becoming a self-actualizing person, for instance) are possible and praisworthy, and others may be important for an individual in particular circumstances. Some introverts may, for instance, begin to prefer to establish contact with the 'outside' world late in life. Our experience is that Enneagram practitioners tend, in general, to believe in the possibility of change, while MBTI practitioners do not. As evidence of the former, as we mentioned in our series on the Enneagram as Mandala, one only need look at the way which in their work Gurdjieff and Ouspensky emphasized not only the need for profound change in the individual, the POSSIBILITY of it. As evidence of the latter, I site a passage that we quoted in the same series (I think it was in the introduction), from the recent MBTI manual. Many people pick up on this bias in the MBTI, and in combination with the tendency these days to try to find a genetic cause for just about everything, argue that one is genetically predisposed toward being a certain personality type. And there also seem to be many people, we were surprised to find, who will argue (in a rather circular manner) that any change that might seem to occur can THEREFORE not be 'real' - a dangerous proposition. But we find that the actual evidence for the fact that type is genetically determined is rather slim. There is also a legitimate question about what, precisely, changes in an individual who undergoes profound intrapersonal change - say, as the result of meditation, or therapy, or life experience. Do the 'essential' qualities of the person change? If so, wouldn't one expect SOME change in the individual's jungian preferences? If not, what DOES change, and what is the relationship these things have with what is essential? What are your thoughts on this matter?

Dear Editors, I just visited your art site and it's wonderful! I love the composition of letters and square shapes with the changing contrasts of the pictures in the focal point. Sometimes I get carried away. I've visited many sites experimentally, but yours looks professional yet pleasing much like the graphic artist "P" story. The minute I saw LOGO I knew "INF" From his profession. I would guess "J" What a positive story! I really liked his design. I'd love one with an "L" I've noticed powder blue is a favorite color of "INF's". I was not too successful in guessing the other Types based on their art and skimming their comments.. That will be a fascinating thing for me to notice at the guild. It will take a while to get to know these people before I introduce Type. I find "N's" are the only ones who love the idea of Type. I, naturally, can't imagine not wanting self discovery but I understand "gifts differing". I also knew by the "Tree" photographers explanation that INF was involved because I could have written that statement. I love photography also, but it's a bit expensive. Once I captured the stages of a nest of robins right outside my front door on the porch light. Speaking of synchronicity, I happened up at 5:20 one morn and caught the first one jumping from the nest and her first hops on the grass. I've ordered both of Shlain's books [which you recommended] form the library. Can't wait. Lenore Thompson doesn't have a book in our library system. On brain hemispheres, I first read one of the classics on brain physiology (can't remember the name right now) but I found it on the child study team shelf. It was a thick paperback which described the parts and development of the brain along with case studies of operations and brain damage and how it manifested itself depending on the lobe or hemisphere involved. Then I read things (more for a lay person) like "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Doorknob" and did exercises from "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain." ... do you think Types can be recognized by the work alone? I too, unless I'm doing something with intention, just start out with clay and maybe an interesting rock, and I ever know what's going to happen. Kind of like writing, how do the characters know what they're ging to do and where does it come from. I look back at things I've written or sculpted, it feels strangely un-connected to me. It's very easy for me to give things away to anyone who would want it. I made one set of cats in various attitudes and then happened upon some boxes on which they stretched and lay. I can't wait to begin spending my Thursdays working with no project in mind. My friend digs up her own red clay in Jackson, NJ, and she has a kiln. My family and other artist friend get frustrate with me that I have made such fragile pieces, but as far as I'm concerned, once I've made it and someone has liked it-or I have liked it- that's it (except for my wizard kingdom). That's an amazing depth of feeling captured in the portrait "Mary" at your site. I feel like I know her... It reminded me of some experimenting with charcoal and in fact, I just realized that's probably why I added some shaded pencil drawings to some envelopes of letter I mailed yesterday. Amazing. ... Oh my, I didn't know I would be writing for so long. My hunt and peck is not quite that as I have written so much. It's just not automatic and I use a pointer and a middle finger. Have a good day. Another day of discovery! Laurie PS I added my email address to the fish thing, so at least it has that. Just one last comment, I love the format of your guess the Type of the artist. Can you really design that whole layout and make it work? Obviously. That must be a combination of graphics and javacript. This letter led to long exchange. We are trying to persuade Laurie to write an article for the Journal, one in which she'd share with others her experience with art, Type, teaching, and her infectious exuberance!

7/18/99 Dear Editors, I'm an ENFP and 7 and my partner is an INFP and a 9. I am particularly interested in spiritual practice and personality types. P.B. We hope that our recent series on the Enneagram as Mandala has provided you with some food for thought in this regard. Would love to hear more about your own thoughts and experiences regarding this.

7/17/99 Dear Editors, We are two 13 and 14 year old students in Harrisburg, PA and are doing a major project for Microsoft's ThinkQuest. Our topic is about the way people perceive art and we request writing permission allowing us to use pictures and information from [your site]. We realize that you may not be the person to ask, but we couldn't find where we would send this. So if you need to would you please forward this to the necessary persons in order for us to get written permission. Thank you. My partner and I are using many multiple references and pictures from many of your sites and will contact you shortly with the exact info. Today is Sat. and i should get the info back to you by Sunday night. Thank you. J.R. and F.L. Okay. Just let us know what you would like to use.

7/6/99 Dear John and Pat, (Excuse my first name presumption - I didn't copy last names), I'm a 47 year old newly retired teacher, (INFP) who has been fascinated and informed by Type for sixteen years. Indeed my understanding helped me survive my years in elementary ed as a reading specialist and second grade teacher, by realizng the reason I was so misunderstood was because I was surrounded by SFJ's. My final year when I had an INFP principal, my comfort as a teacher completely changed! I "produced" a musical with my kids and got Teacher of the Year! I offer this bio info to give you some idea of my understanding of Type. Anyway, about sixteen years ago I attended a Type convention in Phila. at which I met Katherine Myers among others and in looking for info on how to reconnect with this orgaization, I HAPPENED upon your work. Here I thought I was an expert on informal typing, but I found myself reevaluating and rationalizing my judgements when they proved inconsistent with behavor. Now you've offered a whole new realm for me to study, and I've just printed your paper and can't wait to study and apply it! I don't know why it never occured to me - the obvious - that just because one has a preference it does not mean it is a "strength." I wish I were in a setting for formal research, nevertheless, I can use your experience to continue to develop my interpersonal skills and understanding in life. I can't wait to study your levels and go back to reexamine family members and friends. Fortunately, I no longer need be concerned with work relations! Thank you for your work and maybe I can write with a question or two as I apply your theory? I am a serious student. Thanks, Laurie PS Do you happen to know how I can find the Type Organization? You may most certainly feel free to ask questions! Better yet, tell us about YOUR experience. By the way, it is sometimes true that an individual's most preferred function (i.e., 'dominant' function) may not be her 'strongest' or 'most developed'. But this is not what we had in mind when we started speaking about the 'iNfp', for instance, as opposed to the 'inFp'. We had another point in mind, which strikes to the heart of what we believe to be a flaw in the way the terms 'J' and 'P' are used in the MBTI. By 'iNfp' we don't mean "an introvert who has an FNST preference order, but has 'N' as her 'strongest' function." Instead, we mean, "an introvert who has an NFTS preference order, despite the fact that they test 'I' and 'P' on the MBTI". Why do we want to allow someone who scores 'I' and 'P', and who also scores 'N' and 'F', to have TWO possible preference orders (the FNST or the NFTS)? Because we believe that the MBTI has given the terms 'J' and 'P' two different meanings, and in certain cases these are INCONSISTENT. In the INFP type name, 'P' means 1) that it is the third letter [F] in the name that is the dominant function, and 2) that the individual doesn't prefer 'closure', as compared to someone who scores 'J'. The basic assumption by which the MBTI operates, presumes that in the case of somebody who scores I, N, F and P, #1 necessary entails #2, and vice versa. But whether or not #1 always entails #2, and/or vice versa, is a matter for EMPIRICAL investigation, not a 'rule' that can be legislated 'by definition', and thus built into how the system operates without prior empirical justification. All one has to do to show that #1 does not entail #2 is to identify individuals who score I, N, F and P, but have an NFTS preference order. This is relatively easy to do. Unless one is using the MBTI as the testing instrument - since the MBTI infers preference order from the J/P score, and will simply ASSUME that ALL individuals who have I, N, F and P scores have an FNST preference order, whether they in fact do or not. Hence the need for another test (such as the FD33), one that tests preference order separately. Here's an analogy. If you infer a person's intelligence from his or her gender, you will be subject to making mistakes about a person's intelligence. If you want to infer intelligence from gender, you must first empirically show that all males are smarter than all females (or vice versa. You can't simply write this inference into your 'definition' of male or female.

Dear Editors, "I want to use this information to find my 'right' career. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated for an ENFP-Enneagram type two with a three wing." Connie Your best bet would be to post your message at our message board, and see what people have to say. Your Enneagram/MBTI combination is fairly common (although not quite as common as the E2 who is ENFJ or ESFJ), so you could also look in the 'careers' section of MBTI books and independently in Enneagram books. By the way, did you take the FD33 (our short test). I'd be interested in knowing how you score on that.

7/6/99 Dear Editors, With great interest I took the Preference Order Indicator and the result was a not very surprising N=20, F=11, T=5, S=1. BTW there was more than one question that I found quite difficult to answer, that is, to choose one of the alternatives, e.g "visionary or behind the scene catalyst" (I marked visionary as that comes before the "behind the scene" empowerment.) I browsed through some of the writing that was connected to the FD33 and I was intrigued. I work in a major swedish company (as a "development consultant" after having previously worked as a manger for several years) and I toy around with the idea of writing a book about different "thinking patterns" in big systems/organisations. There are a lot of of examples on that and how they affect what the organization does .. or doesn´t do..... I will print out as many of your articles/writing as I can and read this on my refreshingly long journey to this years APT-MBTI-conference in Phoenix (my first). Really curious to learn about your findings regarding the faults in MBTI. And the emerging company or world collective consciousness paradigms. And, as I, as for yet, am most familiar with the MBTI; to learn how F can get it´s righteous, long-awaited, place in the company environment. In the next issue of the Journal we hope to be able to present a paper about the J/P designation in the MBTI - how it is used to INFER preference order, which has the effect of outlawing certain combinations that we are finding (the iNfp, for example - the introvert with NFTS order, who scores 'P' instead of the expected 'J' that the MBTI scoring method legislates MUST, 'by definition', be connected with such a preference order in introverts). Would love to read your book about the 'thinking patterns' in big systems! Or maybe you'll consider writing an article for our Journal.

7/7/99 Dear Editors, Just an appreciative note for your extremly interesting and generous website! An essential contribution to the type (and world) community! Not of any interest to you but still a mentioning about my result on the RHETI "test". Being fairly confident in my 7 position (as well as off-the- scale ENFP :) I did the inventory to check out the instrument, not looking for type. Much to my surprise I got a 9 as a result, albeit with a low score. I have taken a another "test" on the net before and ended up a 7. [Specific scores omitted]. Quite a difference in results! Even though I can agree with several parts of the 9 profile, such as the mediating and systems-thinking sides, there are things in the 7 profile that are essential, such as ideas, possibilites, vision, networking and the stress position 1, and the "nirvana" position, 5 ... So therefore a litte surprised about the result above.. Or maybe I should take a further look at this .....:-0 :) Once again thanks for your work with this site. Best regards, R. What you say is quite interesting. Do you remember the name (or URL) of the first Enneagram test you took on the web? The top three scores on your RHETI shared not a single type with the top three scores on the other test. There was no overlap at all between the two. The problem, I dare say, is not with you. As Don (Riso) said in the recent interview he gave us - there actually seem to be numerous 'enneagrams' out there, all somewhat different. You can imagine how much 'noise' such huge differences in Enneagram test results creates in MBTI-Enneagram correlation studies. You might note that the ENFP (who statistically scores high in E7) and the INFP (who statistically scores high in E9) have the same functional constellation (both include Ne, Si, Fi, and Te) but in different orders - Ne/Fi/Te/Si and Fi/Ne/Si/Te respectively. So there are actually latent consistencies in how you score. I'd be interested in knowing how you score on our 'preference order indicator' (the FD33), at - "http://tap3x.net/indicators/5level2.html". John

6/24/99 Hi, Congratulations on your wonderful MBTI & Enneagream related sites. They truly are a wonderful resource. Two corrections you may wish to make relate to the description of an enneagram type 5 person on the Javascript Tool at - http://tap3x.net/ENSEMBLE/typeframe.html 1) You say 'Zone-8 shares dom-F & inf-T with Zone-5.' You actually mean 'Zone-8 shares dom-T & inf-F with Zone-5.' 2) At the end of the description you repeat the following, which you had already said earlier The E(S/N)TJ s that are prototypical 8s are the 'executives', who enjoy 'administration'; they have a natural interest in control and 'in running things' (p. 85, Myers), and demonstrate a 'willingness to issue strict orders'. They want to be the ones who make the decisions and write the rules by which others live. They are not shy about requiring conformity of others. They have no compunction about 'inflicting [their] own judgment upon other people'. (p.87) They are analytical and impersonal - decisive, logical, strong in reasoning power. Their emotional life is described as 'accidental', and underdeveloped. Feeling is very strong, but it does not flow toward the object. It is rather like being in a state of love with oneself. ...The hidden introverted feeling of the extraverted feeling type establishes strong invisible loyalties. ...In a politician, the inferior feeling function might unconsciously manifest itself in a deep-rooted and steadfast loyalty to his country. But it might also induce him to drop an atom bomb or commit some other destructive act. Unconscious and undeveloped feeling is barbaric and absolute, and therefore sometimes hidden destructive fanaticism burst out of the extraverted thinking type. (50) Palmer similarly recognizes the excessive nature of the primitive feelings of 8s. They are prone to the 'open expression of anger' and also lust. Theirs is an 'all or nothing' style. Excess is an 'antidote to boredom', and (we might add) to underdeveloped feeling. 'Late hours, heavy entertainment, bingeing. Too much, too loud, too many.' They exhibit inferior feeling: Difficulty in recognizing the dependent aspects of the self. When affected by others, can deny real feelings, by withdrawal, by claiming boredom, or by internally blaming the self. (p. 309, Palmer) Once again thank you for a truly excellent site. Cheers, Tony You're right, that's what we meant to say. Thanks for pointing this out. And thanks also for the nice words about the sites.

06/23/99 Dear Editors, This is a great site - stimulating, cutting edge material. I am looking forward to finding something written on 'unusual combinations' - such as 5 and ENFP. I think that my need to be left alone is fundamental. I easily slip into my ENFP-mood with the right people around and quite enjoy it. Margareta E5/ENFP (weird but true!) You are right, much more needs to be said about why people have 'unusual' combinations. We have had a dialogue with Pat Wyman about 'usual' versus 'unusual' Enneagram and MBTI combinations, which is posted at this site, and have offered some hypotheses about why some individuals with a particular MBTI Type might gravitate toward unexpected Enneazones (like the iNfp Four). But, quite frankly, this only begins to scratch the surface. Much more research must be done. We need to hear from more people, like yourself, who have unusual combinations. You can help, for instance, by telling us more about your combination. We have your FD33 scores, which you previously emailed us. They indicate that you have an N-F-T-S preference order, which is compatible with what you tell us is your MBTI type (ENFP). But you test as an E5 (which, statistically speaking, seems to attract the INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ, INFJ - in that order). No ENFPs tested as E5s in the EM study. So your combination is somewhat of a rarity. But your email does offer a clue as to why you may test as an E5 - you say that your 'need to be left alone' is 'fundamental'. The E5, who is sometimes called 'the Observer', is disposed toward 'detachment', which is grounded in their appreciation of 'equanimity' and a capacity for 'dispassionate observing', as we've mentioned elsewhere (and here). So what you say is in accord with our theory that when an individual with an unexpected MBTI type (eg, ENFP) shows up in a particular Enneazone (E5), it will most likely be because he or she shares the 'issue' (inferior F, related to a detached/isolated stance) that draws the 'prototypical' MBTI type (INTP/ISTP) to that zone. But then the question becomes - If you have a 'fundamental need to be left alone', why do you test as an extravert on the MBTI and not, say, as an INFJ, who has the same preference order (N-F-T-S)? Its well-known that the INFJ can look like an Extravert, because he/she can be quite talkative, especially amongst friends, or when espousing their 'vision' before a group. This is not to say that you are 'really' an INFJ, however (although that's theoretically possible). Perhaps you are driven by circumstance (eg, an uncomfortable work environment) into more isolation than you would prefer, and the issues around which E5s cluster are thereby kicked up. You are the one who is in the best position to speak to the possibilities that are raised by these theoretical considerations. How did you test on the RHETI, by the way? Sometimes knowing this can help.

June 21, 1999 Dear Editors, I want to use this information to find my 'right' career. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated for an ENFP-Enneagram type two with a three wing. Connie Your best bet would be to post your message at our message board, and see what people have to say. Your Enneagram/MBTI combination is fairly common (although not quite as common as the E2 who is ENFJ or ESFJ), so you could also look in the 'careers' section of MBTI books and independently in Enneagram books. By the way, did you take the FD33 (our short test). We'd be interested in knowing how you score on that.